tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post8755888019831887282..comments2024-01-03T17:02:06.646+00:00Comments on ASTROTABLETALK: Pluto, Ceres and the FritzlsBarry Goddardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10050835957098177925noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post-36120158750481988662008-05-05T09:13:00.000+01:002008-05-05T09:13:00.000+01:00I think the distinction is sad yet obvious, but as...I think the distinction is sad yet obvious, but as astrologers we look with interest at the dynamics at work between the major characters.Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16086816815479761220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post-35516577453121599752008-05-05T00:46:00.000+01:002008-05-05T00:46:00.000+01:00In the case of Joseph and Elizebeth Fritzl, we can...In the case of Joseph and Elizebeth Fritzl, we can see the strong connection that is indicated in their horoscopes. But with two other individuals with identical horoscopes to these we might have had a very different outcome, because the decisions made by the individual in control, the parent, might have been quite different. Joseph is the father, the adult, who is supposed to be loving and protecting his child. It doesn’t matter that Elizabeth has Uranus conjunct Pluto, and might, or might not, be calling unfortunate circumstances to herself. Joseph is the perpetrator, not Elizabeth, and your post and comments don't clearly make that distinction. There is the astrology, and there is what people do with the astrology. It should never obscure the fact that we have to own our actions.Venushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04872999615847944726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post-52665882496827494312008-05-04T16:39:00.000+01:002008-05-04T16:39:00.000+01:00Yes, I agree we have to look at it in terms of her...Yes, I agree we have to look at it in terms of her somehow attracting it, especially with that loose canon Uranus-Pluto. But also, as the saying goes, "Shit happens". Not everything unpleasant or unfortunate that happens to us has a psychological correlation within us, not everything is meaningful in that way. (I think the view that every event is significant is the opposite extreme to, and a reaction to, nihilistic materialism, where nothing is meangful).<BR/><BR/>I think some events are meaningful and say something about us, and some are not, and it is an art working this one out. And even when there seems to be a strong connection between inner and outer, we need to dance lightly with it, we need to keep inverted commas round it and not set it in stone.<BR/><BR/>And maybe it takes years or decades to feel sure of the connections.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post-78843626450733472932008-05-04T16:09:00.000+01:002008-05-04T16:09:00.000+01:00The point is I am NOT saying she asked for it! It'...<I>The point is I am NOT saying she asked for it! It's a bit like certain people are more likely to be mugged in the street than others because of the way they walk. That doesn't mean they are asking for it. But something in them attracts it, or fits the experience, and this is something you can't ignore as an astrologer, because there's a good chance you'll see it in the chart. How to describe it I don't know, ......</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>How this gets described in oriental diagnosis is that people get illnesses/tragedies that are totally in alignment with their nature, with their unbalanced outlook or wrong understanding of universal order. So your illness/tragedy IS really you. So this is saying she attracted it. <BR/><BR/>When I learned about yin and yang, the principle of balance or law of change of the universe, one of the laws states:<BR/>“The attraction and repulsion between phenomena is proportional to the difference of the yin and yang forces within them.” <BR/><BR/>There are many ways to interpret this to make it more understandable, like “The challenges that you receive are in direct proportion to the physical/emotional/spiritual changes that you need to make.” Or “The problems/tragedies that you experience are in direct proportion to your condition.” You could also say “Tragedies equal opportunities.” Or “Extreme energies create extreme events/symptoms.” Or like someone said “Peace: the art of balancing opposites.” So when you study energy or this principle of change, you get to see how events are never random, separate or isolated. There is always a background. <BR/><BR/>I would say that Elisabeth Fritzl as a soul chose the experience, but of course, as a young girl she was not consciously choosing it. But when she was born she already held the extreme patterns within her that attracted it, and the astrology seems to show this. At some point in her evolution she must have misunderstood some universal truth because of some painful experience, that then got ingrained deeper and deeper and deeper over many lifetimes and until she does not correct that she will keep being the victim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post-91553119280729656092008-05-04T14:09:00.000+01:002008-05-04T14:09:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16086816815479761220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post-78650502900688670612008-05-03T16:36:00.000+01:002008-05-03T16:36:00.000+01:00Dunyazade, I've no idea what she needs to do with ...Dunyazade, I've no idea what she needs to do with her Uranus-Pluto, I'd need to know her. But she's a fighter, she has Sun conjunct Mars in Aries.Barry Goddardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10050835957098177925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post-70010647269497662352008-05-02T23:57:00.000+01:002008-05-02T23:57:00.000+01:00The point is I am NOT saying she asked for it! It'...The point is I am NOT saying she asked for it! It's a bit like certain people are more likely to be mugged in the street than others because of the way they walk. That doesn't mean they are asking for it. But something in them attracts it, or fits the experience, and this is something you can't ignore as an astrologer, because there's a good chance you'll see it in the chart. How to describe it I don't know, like I said it's a difficult area, precisely because people are going to say you must mean they're asking for it. Things are interconnected, events are not random, as an astrologer you see this all the time.Barry Goddardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10050835957098177925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post-40336553530182761642008-05-02T22:56:00.000+01:002008-05-02T22:56:00.000+01:00Interesting post! Thanks to reading your blog I no...Interesting post! Thanks to reading your blog I now know about Joseph and Elizabeth Fritzl. I've seen the headlines online, but I've avoided reading the stories, as I've avoided reading the stories on the Texas polygamists. Too much heartache! I agree with the above comment, but from a different perspective. I see that he identified her as an extension of his own "self," which parents tend to do anyway, but this was extreme. She was too young, and cannot be said to have participated in his decision. Your observation that her astro aspects, although not making her responsible for what happened, does implicate her in some way, resembles a tenet held by a popular group training system of the 1970's to mid 1980's in the US called EST. The term they used was "accountable." That although the victim may not have been responsible, they, nevertheless, were accountable. And this accountable concept came from, the founder of the organization, Werner Erhard's understanding of karma in Zen, which he had practiced, combined with his total repudiation of anyone identifying with being a victim.<BR/><BR/>Interestingly, this training and its founder were destroyed by the the revelation on 60 Minutes by his family that Werner Erhard had molested his daughter. When he was questioned about this, he said that "she needed it." The training, which amounted to self-promotion and dominance lives on in some form, and Werner Erhard now lives in Europe (perhaps in Austria). He has a powerful chart with a conjunction of Sun, Neptune and Venus in Virgo opposed by Saturn. I have never been in the presence of a more persuasive force. But I digress.<BR/><BR/>What you are saying here at the end of a delicious post is like what rapists say about their victims. That they asked for it. This is nonsense. Elizabeth Fritzl is not only not responsible for what happened, she is not accountable for it either. She was a child and the power of what was forced upon her was beyond her ability to contradict. Sometimes we lose. And so she has lost beyond imagining, but she has the power now and has walked away from it. Let's hope for the best!Venushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04872999615847944726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post-60208090268588490992008-05-02T17:03:00.000+01:002008-05-02T17:03:00.000+01:00Excellent post, dr.I haven't had time yet to compa...Excellent post, dr.<BR/>I haven't had time yet to compare the charts of father and daughter, but I find it quite telling that their birthdays are one day apart. Suggesting that she was subsumed by his ego from birth. He was turning 31, just beginning to move beyond his Saturn return.<BR/>He was only 10 when Austria opted out of the German disaster, which opens up the question of what he experienced during his formative years, that helped shaped him in such twisted fashion.<BR/>I foresee whole sections of future astrology books devoted to this complex tragedy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post-742021478663719622008-05-02T11:43:00.000+01:002008-05-02T11:43:00.000+01:00"Elisabeth Fritzl will need to find a way of appro..."Elisabeth Fritzl will need to find a way of approaching her Uranus-Pluto, or it will continue to find ways of destroying her."<BR/><BR/>I'm curious about this. How could she channel it? Trough art, perhaps? Other ways, maybe? Do you have any ideas?Dunyazadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07154991805777953680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30912075.post-33334647338911868042008-05-02T01:16:00.000+01:002008-05-02T01:16:00.000+01:00Hi Dharmaruci,Excellent post. I appreciate how yo...Hi Dharmaruci,<BR/><BR/>Excellent post. I appreciate how you describe the influence of Ceres in both Josef Fritzl’s chart and his victimed daughter. <BR/><BR/>I also think his natal Vesta (sexual energy) quincunx to Ceres and Pluto, may have something to do with his sexual deviation/perversion.<BR/><BR/>Also interestingly, Austria is an intense and Scorpionic country (November 12th, 1918 @ 4pm, Vienna) with the Sun-Venus conjunction in this sign (squaring onto Uranus in Aquarius and opposite Saturn in Leo i.e. very ego-centric and intense). <BR/><BR/>Add the North Node in the 8th – the Scorpio house – the house of sexuality and death par excellence and we have extreme sexual possessiveness and intensity. Not to mention transiting Pluto in Capricorn right on Austria’s natal Mars in the 8th and opposite Pluto in Cancer.<BR/><BR/>I feel for this woman and for the 3 children who were imprisoned with their mother... I don’t want to think about the physical and psychological toll this is having on them all....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com