Saturday, June 09, 2007

PLUTO IN LEO VS PLUTO IN CAPRICORN

I had been wondering in Thursday's posting (Celebrity Reality-Check) if the Paris Hilton affair etc might be part of Pluto’s entry into Capricorn, as well as part of the Saturn-Neptune opposition, but now I think perhaps not. It has more to do with Saturn in Leo, restraints (Saturn) on royalty/celebrity (Leo), opposite Neptune (excess, fantasies).

Capricorn and Leo are both about the Father archetype, and therefore both about leadership, but in different ways. I think that Leo is more about the leader who stands for something, who is archetypal royalty that connects us to the Source of life; whereas Capricorn is more about the leader who rules wisely within the limits of what is possible. Celebrities don’t usually govern us (though some make the transition), they are just there, rightly or wrongly, to fill our need for archetypal royalty. So it is a Leo issue rather than a Capricorn one.

When Pluto entered Leo in 1938/39, the western world was dominated by several major historical figures – Hitler, Roosevelt, Mussolini, Stalin, Churchill (a year later). This is what we remember about this era: the leaders themselves, which is very much a Leo thing. Churchill, for example, was in many ways not very Capricorn, not very good at actually running things, though he had people who were. He had plenty of ideas about military strategy, but the generals had to do their best to keep his hands off, because his ideas weren’t always very practical. But his ability to lead the nation, to stand for something and draw the nation behind that, was superb. His leadership strength was Leo. As was Hitler’s. His actual running of the Reich was apparently quite chaotic, but he could certainly stand for something, something Divine even, or what was felt to be Divine. Mussolini was a Leo anyway, so no more need to be said. Perhaps in wartime this emphasis in needed, and hence Pluto was in Leo during this period.

A good leader needs some of this Leo quality, which is why the next UK leader, Gordon Brown, the Invisible Man who is good with the books, won’t be a good leader, despite his Capricorn-leadership qualities. (He has Moon in Leo, but its conjunction to Pluto seems to make it hidden and manipulative, rather than empowering and shining). Margaret Thatcher, who has Saturn Rising and Moon in Leo, had both. I think at heart she was a bookkeeper, and a much needed one, but she also managed to stand for something, while on the birth of her first grandchild she famously announced “We are a grandmother.” It was Ronald Reagan’s criticism of his successor, George Bush Snr, that he didn’t stand for anything, even though he had the Capricorn sense not to go for regime change in Iraq. Unlike his son, who is all Leo and no Capricorn as a leader.

The last time Pluto was in Capricorn was from 1762-1778, and the most notable leadership event during that period was the American Revolution and the creation of a new and very well thought through system of government, and the world’s first full democracy (kind of). (Note the French Revolution took place later under Pluto in Aquarius). Yes, the American Revolution has its hallowed leaders (Leo). But the real achievement was this new type of government.

So with Pluto coming into Capricorn, although we will of course continue to have well-recognised leaders, I think there will be more of an emphasis on good government, of ruling within the limits that are there. This is the nature of Saturn/Capricorn: it involves an initiation into life through the world, through embracing its limitations and learning to function through them, so that our dreams become real and contribute to society.

And more than anything, the limitation now is the earth herself, our leaders functioning within the limits of what the earth has to offer. This is something we have forgotten how to do and forgotten is necessary. Limits, we feel, are to be transcended through new technology. So Pluto in Capricorn is coming at just the right time, as the environmental issue becomes politically mainstream. What we now need are leaders who know about Capricorn rulership, who know about functioning within limits, and not just because of the environmental issue, but also (in the west) because we no longer have the world to ourselves - China and India are also coming on board in a big way, and with huge populations.


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22 comments:

Melody said...

Great blog...gives one hope...

ASTROTABLETALK said...

Let's hope our Capricorn leaders aren't too boring!

Melody said...

yeah...that's funny!

jm said...

Saturn is the administrator. The architect. I agree with this, that Leonine leadership can be chaotic in practical terms. Saturn is governance, law and order. The Sun in Capricorn is a combination of these. Capricorn-Leo inconjuncts as well.

Perhaps in wartime this emphasis in needed, and hence Pluto was in Leo during this period.

Very very good point and my perception too. Getting people to war is not easy. There is really no practical rationalization, so the illusion of glory has to be built. Or the illusion of a monolithic enemy. The problem with Leonine leadership, I think, is the overpowering of people's will. Sometimes that's necessary, but not in the coming years.

I think the Leo type is not needed for awhile, which from this reasoning might mean a diminishing of warfare.

In mythology Saturn ruled over a renaissance, and I think this is a possibility in the Cap years. The Saturn in Leo transit tarnished the Leo leader's image so I read this as a Saturn victory in a sense as the Saturn years approach. It's time for this type of organization. I don't even call it leadership since Saturn's MO is delegation. And the Pluto in Leo generation's dominance is winding down.

A military person I talked to awhile back said that the concentration has left the ME, and the focus is now on India and Korea. Don't know. I do think the financial structure with Pluto in Capricorn will be changing and that will mean Asia comes to bat. Economics will dictate how we all play the new game. Not a Leo one.
Governance will dominate, not leadership. Leadership implies going somewhere, and I don't think this country will be doing that for awhile.
I do think, however, that The USA star position will continue to some extent.

ASTROTABLETALK said...

Yes, I think it'll be a long winding down process for the USA. I mean the USA Prog Saturn (place on the world stage) has only been retrograde for about 10 years, and the Prog Mars (military influence) for a couple of years. But they are still nevertheless happening, and for the first time ever.

jm said...

I think there will be huge changes in the USA style of leadership. The progressed Saturn will figure in even more since it rules Capricorn.

The other interesting factor is the idea that globalization is not working well. Some are saying this. Others fear consolidation and further centralization of power with Pluto in Capricorn, but I'm not convinced. There are theories about a return to nationalism, and when you consider Saturn and boundaries, this is not far fetched. It's been awhile since Pluto has been in an earth sign.

ASTROTABLETALK said...

Various charts for the years around 2022/23 are interesting, including the Presidential inauguaration chart for 2021, which has Pluto on the Midheaven. See my posting of 7 March 'The US Pluto Return'. How do you put links in these comments?

jm said...

I have to fool the system with the link instructions. So...

First:<
Next:a href="
Next:URL of the link
Next:">your title<
Last:/a>

No spaces unless pictured above.

ASTROTABLETALK said...

Thanks for that.

What about pasting? Is that possible? Or do you have to type everything out?

jm said...

Take your mouse and left click in front of the first word. A blue color should appear as you drag your mouse across the words you want to paste.

Stop at the last word.
Go to "edit" at the top of your browser. Click and a menu will appear.
Click copy.
Go to the comment box and click.
Go back to "edit" and click. The menu will come again.
Click paste, and voila!

Darren said...

A few observations:

Last time pluto was in capricorn, we didn't consciously know about Pluto, do you think this makes any difference?

Secondly, its interesting that the forthcoming years of Pluto in Cap. are going to be co-inciding with a sort of 'grounding' of the American space program until the early 2020s when they are going back to the moon... when pluto enters Aquarius. I wonder if, during Pluto in Aquarius, Internet based groups of ordinary citizens will have matured enough to rival governments and multi-nationals in their power? (Yes I know this is already happening, but I think it could go a lot further).

ASTROTABLETALK said...

Yes, thanks, but that one doesn't seem to work on mine! When I go back to "edit" and click, the comment box disappears, and therefore so does the paste option.

-pd- said...

Fascinating discussion. Another astro facet pertaining to this is the progressed Moon in the USA chart in relation to transiting Saturn -- p Moon now 16 Leo, 5 degrees behind t Saturn.
I was alerted to this by a piece on astrococktail.com, called "Dark Days: The End of the Beginning." Check it out. Mr. Townley also emphasizes the period around 2020, when p Moon and t Jupiter, Saturn and Pluto all cluster around the USA natal Pluto.
Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I associate the coming Pluto in Cap era with a trend toward smaller-scale everything. Better management after the excessive scale, the mania for bigness, driven to an extreme by Pluto in Sag.

jm said...

Did you wait for the "secure item" box to appear first, dr? Click that before anything else.

Last time pluto was in capricorn, we didn't consciously know about Pluto, do you think this makes any difference?

A resounding yes. And now the change in status. I've been writing a lot about this on my blog. I tend to think things are going to be very different from what a lot of people think. Added factor is the sextile between Cap and Scorp, the signs they rule.

That's a very interesting comment on the grounding of the space program, darren. Very interesting. Coincides with my view about focus on the earth coming up especially when Uranus goes into Taurus.

Pluto rules wealth, and in Aquarius I believe there will be a more equitable distribution. The diminishing of destructive monopolies will come in Cap and Aquarius as they buckle under their weight and cancerous growth. They are going to devour one another. A lot of favorable small business legislation is getting passed right now.
Now is the time for people to consolidate and recognize their coming power through the internet and other ways. The NN will be going into Aquarius shortly and this will bring some serious political awakening among the people, especially the young as Uranus in Aries will prove.

Fascinating, pd, on the progressed moon. It will be in Virgo with Saturn too. Very very good.

Pluto through Cap will bring much better management. I'm seeing a lot of that already in Colorado. The NN will be in Capricorn as well just as Uranus enters Aries. Also good. Lots of earth trines ahead.

I'm going to check these charts along with dr's inaugural chart and return. I'm so glad there are sensible astrologer's around. It really is a science, after all.:o)

The NN will be going into Aquarius shortly and the political awakening will rev up, especially among the young, as Uranus in Aries will prove.

It's time to get serious and logical about all of this and get ready to leave the excitement craving Jupiter years behind. There is too much to be done. The realities of governing this eartly population will be taking precedence.

Isn't India a Capricorn?

jm said...

A little addition. This is why I think this article on Cap vs Leo is so good, especially since Saturn is in Leo now pitting them against one another. Bush being the Leo rising. Time to say goodby get ready for the next phase.
The USA Saturn return in Libra is just ahead as well, which will be crossing p Mars.

There is an overall balancing of positive and negative. It's how we managed to survive intact to this point. The political move toward earthly concerns will probably be he next big wave as survival once again dominates. If survival depends on a better balance of power in Aquarius, then it will happen. The collective knowledge and need is greater than the class distinction. It could even be that the separations are there to see this and ultimately evolve.

Annabel said...

Regarding the UK's position once Pluto gets settled in capricorn, 1801 UK Unification chart - Sun 10 Cap 10 in 4th house. England,1066 Sun 9 cap 54 Merc 16 cap 36,Venus 29 cap 38.
British Conservative Party, Asc. 18 cap 38. Sun 19 scorp 39, saturn 25 scorp 52,MC 23 scorp 22.
Leader Dave Cameron has mercury in scorp.
I think this shows that capricornian "good management" and more of a consensus government coming rather than the preidential style we have has for the last 10 years.

jm said...

Omg, Annabel. Thanks for these specs. Amazing.
There is so much pointing to solid accomplishment with all the Capricorn.

I think one of the most important jobs ahead lies with the progressives and an end to the view as the government as the enemy. We the people in general need to stop this. There is no way we can have good government with proper delegation of responsibilities if the childish view of oppressive parent isn't changed, a particular prob with the USA. The people have to understand their ability to control and their vital part in the structure. The Cap in these British charts is very encouraging. And if anyone thinks the current "rulers" know what they're doing, they should think again more accurately. New world Order? Be serious. Disorder is more like it, which is why we need Cap.

Lets get these kids out of the government and elevate some real administrators.

The natal Pluto in Cap of the USA is the Ace. It shows an ability to completely transform the government at will. A successful rebuilding. It's up to us.

ASTROTABLETALK said...

Or Pluto return - the USA re-asserting its founding ideals, that's what Cap prefers to do.

Sorry to be a pain jm, computers aren't my forte, but what 'secure item' box?

jm said...

Heheh. Actually, I got that wrong.

When I get to my comments, a small gray box appears called "security information". I have to click "yes".

I had this problem with pasting a long time ago, but I can't remember how it got fixed.

Try opening the comments in a separate window. Also an experiment. Try pasting into your e-mail, "write mail" and see what happens.

I have some ideas on the Pluto return I'll post in a bit. I'm glad you brought up that fascinating inaugural chart.

Annabel said...

JM. Here is the data, check them out for yourself.
1801 UK chart
1st Jan 1801
LMT + 0.00.40
Westminster,UK
51N30 000W09
England.
25th Dec 1066
12.00 LMT +00.00.40
London 51N30 000W10
British Conservative Party
12th November 1867
12.00 UT. +00.00
London
Party Leader - David Cameron
9th Oct 1966
5.51am -1.00BST
London.

DR rectified this, as David's mum said "about" 6am. There is no way this man has Libra rising!!! Very green, wind turbine on roof, gardens, cooks, health conscious, great attention to detail etc.

jm said...

Annabel, thanks! I'm going to take a close look at David's chart. This ties in with my libra-Capricorn theories and the times ahead. Very interesting.

I cannot believe the Pluto return and this inaugural chart. It looks like the ultimate in the Cap style of leadership and maybe a USA economic improvement. The way the country handles her wealth. The loss of dignity in the office of the president is complete and this looks like restoration and a new and improved form of leadership.

Jannus said...

Here in Greece, we should use some useful Capricorn qualities...

If you find it interesting, you could study Greek late history of December 2008 and the late financial problems.

I think that this chart "works" more properly...
03 feb 1830/12.00 pm/athens

Very interesting articles, keep on the good writing...