I'm away at Glastonbury Festival, so below is an extract from a 2002 interview with Liz Greene, conducted by Nicholas Campion (who compiled the Book of World Horoscopes.)Nick Campion: One of the prevalent themes throughout all your work is the dynamic idea of astrology as a process or astrology as a path, and that we are all on a journey to somewhere. As I read what you wrote about Saturn-Pluto on my way here, I realised that you were also emphasising the concept of process and the passage through growth and decay that comes with linear time, which is evident through nature, society, and the human psyche. You also state that "these are esoteric concepts."[17] On another occasion, when a member of the audience at a seminar tried to involve you in discussion of reincarnation in relation to Saturn and Pluto, you responded: "I really don’t know about the metaphysical side of all this."[18] So, what I’m asking is whether you, personally, have a metaphysics which influences your astrology or a grand metaphysical explanation of astrology? Or does it just not concern you?
Liz Greene: It concerns me on a personal level in the sense that I would like to know what in hell we are doing here. So, I will certainly raise the question. But I don’t think that astrology itself contains metaphysics. There is no belief system attached to it. People bring belief systems to it; in a sense, you can’t avoid doing that, because every human being has a set of preconceptions. So, it is impossible to say: "Well, I am not bringing my belief system to astrology." Everything I have just said reflects my belief system. I can’t guarantee that the patterns that I perceive in life are really there. But I am pretty sure that something like them is there, because enough other people have been perceiving them for millennia. But as far as reincarnation, evolution, and questions about where the spirit goes after death are concerned - Do we have souls? Do we go to heaven or hell? Should we be Christian or should we be pagan? - I really have no idea. I don’t think the answers to these questions are relevant to astrology itself. Astrology is simply a set of symbols describing patterns. If we impose a spiritual or religious or metaphysical order on those patterns, that’s fine. But it is a personal imposition and not something inherent in astrology itself.
Nick Campion: Would you say that astrology itself is a belief system?
Liz Greene: No, I wouldn’t, any more than any symbol is a belief system. I don’t know what symbols are, except that they seem to emerge organically as containers of a multitude of conflicting and complicated patterns that are connected in some way. We don’t manufacture them, and we certainly don’t believe in them. They are there anyway. We perceive them, notice them, and make connections between them. "Believing" in astrology makes no sense to me. It is nonsense to say, "I believe in it," because belief is something you do when you have no direct experience. Astrology is something that requires experience and hands-on work to see whether it conveys any meaning or relevance. So, it is like saying, "Do you believe in your car?" No, I just drive it. I have no idea how it runs, but if it works, well, fine. People who say they believe in astrology are either using the wrong word or don’t know what they are talking about. You can believe in God or you can believe in reincarnation, because we have no direct experience of these things. There are people who would say they know there is a God and that it’s not a matter of belief. Okay, I can’t argue with that. Maybe they do. Some people say they know there is reincarnation, because they remember the 16th century when they were burnt at the stake. Well, I am not in a position to say they are idiots or are delusional - or that they are fantasising something profoundly relevant, symbolically. I just don’t know, and because I don’t know, I don’t feel it is appropriate to bring this into an interpretation with a client.
Nick Campion: So, turning to clients, then, have you formed any general impression as to what they want from astrology? The criticism is sometimes levelled at people who go to astrologers that they are looking for meaning - as if that is a negative thing - or that they are in search of security.
Liz Greene: There are as many different reasons why people go to an astrologer as there are people. I also think that skepticism and belief are two faces of the same pathology. The skepticism that makes people say, "People who go to astrologers are just insecure," is the result of a misleading generalisation. You have to take it one individual at a time. How many years ago did I start seeing clients? If I started when I was nineteen, that’s 36 years. I couldn’t say that all the people I have seen over that period are looking for the same thing - or for one specific thing. They fall into rough groups. Some people come for purely pragmatic concerns. They simply assume that astrology might be useful and that they can use a horoscope reading to find out how and when to make a practical decision. They are not really anxious about why it works. Others come for psychological insights. Some come because they have run up against a wall with a relationship dilemma. Some come because they are quite wretched and deeply depressed, or they are on the edge of a breakdown and they are hoping that they can get some insight. Some people come for meaning. Some come because they want to know about their spiritual development. You name it! So, I don’t think they fall into any particular category. And some of them, perhaps most of them, don’t "believe" in it. They are interested solely in seeing whether it can help them, which is not the same thing.
Nick Campion: Do your clients share a recognisable socio-economic background? I’m thinking of accusations I’ve heard that people who go to see astrologers are on the fringes of society.
Liz Greene: No, there’s no pattern. When I started doing charts, my circle was limited because of the scene I was around in the 1960s. There was certainly a "type" of client then. My clients came mainly from the New Age hippie world, with an overlap of people in the music business and the theatre. People in all sections of society have always been interested in astrology, and there is no single type of person I have seen over the last 20 years. Any kind of client and any reason for a consultation that you can think of, they have come for a chart.
Nick Campion: Do you not even see a majority of women? Wherever I go, that’s the dominant gender in astrology.
Liz Greene: That used to be the case, but increasingly now I have a lot of male clients. Interestingly, since I have moved to Switzerland, the percentage of men has gone up. I’ve also noticed it at my Zürich seminars, where there are many more men than there are in my London seminars.
Nick Campion: That’s quite surprising, because I am used to the overwhelming preponderance of women in astrology in the U.K. and the U.S.
Liz Greene: I think it’s cultural, that one. I wouldn’t say that there are more men than women amongst the Swiss students, but certainly, in some seminars, there are as many as forty or fifty percent. It depends on the topic. If I am doing a seminar on the Moon or Venus, more women will come. But there are differences in terms of how the collective perceives astrology in Switzerland. I get people from the Swiss government coming to seminars, as well as biologists and mathematicians - men who have no problem with being seen going to an astrology seminar.
Nick Campion: Is that particular to you, in the sense that you are known as a Jungian, and Jung was a man and Swiss?
Liz Greene: No, I don’t think so. I think it is cultural. There is something very deeply wrong with the British collective in terms of its approach to astrology. The British suffer from hyper-rationality, and people are very afraid of the irrational. That is why the British are into Freud-bashing, Jung-bashing, psychoanalysis-bashing, astrology-bashing. It is a problem in this collective. It is changing slowly, but I think it is changing faster in other European countries.
Nick Campion: Presumably, you are using the word "irrational" in a positive sense.
Liz Greene: Yes, "irrational" doesn’t mean "mad."
Nick Campion: It so often does mean mad.
Liz Greene: Well, it often does in Britain!
Nick Campion: Just now, you said that belief and skepticism were two sides of the same coin. This reminded me of a conversation I had with Alexander Ruperti at a British Astrological Association Conference around 1985. He was a student of Alice Bailey’s and was deeply philosophical and very influenced by theosophy. He started getting very critical of Jungian and psychological astrologers, saying, "Oh, they don’t know what they are playing with because they psychologize everything." I had an insight then that the theosophical astrologers who began the development of modern psychological astrology in the early 20th century had a spiritual metaphysics that was integral to their astrology, one that Ruperti accepted. But the psychological approach to astrology can, in fact, be deeply skeptical because it would argue that, if you believe in archangels and ascended masters (as a theosophical astrologer would), then such beliefs might be no more than your psychological projection.
Liz Greene: Yes, they might be. But looking at things psychologically doesn’t mean that numinous experiences are therefore necessarily a sublimation of a pathology. Metaphysical beliefs can exist totally appropriately on their own plane. Putting a psychological perspective on astrology simply postulates that, whatever these numinous experiences are, it is human beings who report them. Whatever it is that is being reported, psychology is not in a position to assess its truth or untruth. It is just that human beings bring their own psychological processes to bear on what they are perceiving. So, if a devout Catholic has a numinous experience, they are going to say: "I saw the Virgin Mary," while an Australian aborigine is going to say: "I became one with the land," and a Hindu will experience enlightenment through Krishna. Individuals create their own lenses through which these experiences are perceived. All that psychology can say is: "Okay, something extraordinary has happened, but we don’t know whether they are angels or not." Personally, I am not in a position to say whether angels exist or not. I haven’t the foggiest idea. But I am interested in the person who comes to me saying he or she saw angels, because that immediately brings in the individual and their psychology - and it is a good idea to know what kind of person you are before you assume that everything that angel said to you is the truth. That way, at least you have some room to breathe with it and to navigate round it.
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