Monday, October 15, 2007


A few days ago, Top Ten Sources flagged up an interview with the British astrologer Dennis Elwell that is well worth reading.

Here is what he had to say about Chiron:

“On the subject of Chiron, it is as significant as any planet, but I do not go along with the 'woundedness' interpretation. Mention Chiron in a lecture, and you can see the little thought balloons go up over the audience's heads - 'Ah yes, the wounded healer.' But when you are dealing with Chiron in practical work it is better to remember that his mythological namesake conducted a school for heroes. In Cosmic Loom, back in 1987, I described Chiron as 'a provocative planet that quite enjoys giving things a stir, but which above all gives the audacity to attempt.' As old Chiron trains us up towards accomplishments we never thought we could achieve, we need to be able to take the dare, to have an irreverent disrespect for the wise ones who say this or that can't be done. Chiron's style borders on cocky impudence, but perhaps its basic function is to persuade us that nothing is impossible.

The provocative side of Chiron is apt to show itself strongly in combination with Mars. Hitler was born with these bodies in close parallel, as well as septile. There are a lot of quintiles in his chart - the signature of an effective will - and the quintile between Chiron and Mercury is relevant to how he talked his way to power.”

Last year I looked up the date of first publication for the superheroes Superman, Spiderman and The Incredible Hulk. What I found was that they all had Jupiter-Chiron aspects. Jupiter I interpreted as their superpowers, and Chiron as the incurable wound that each of them had that brought about their powers: Superman was torn from his planet and his family as a baby, and The Hulk and Spiderman had both been subject to radiation. So Elwell’s take on Chiron enriches this symbolism, even though he doesn’t accept the ‘wound’ interpretation. (Batman does not have a Chiron-Jupiter aspect, but nor does he have superpowers).

It can also be quixotic: George ‘Top Gun’ Bush has a Jupiter-Chiron conjunction. He had ‘the audacity to attempt’ when it came to Iraq, but it was foolish, and the initial victory he prided himself on had been a turkey shoot.

I emailed Dennis Elwell about his article, and in his reply he included the comments: “Like Bush, Sylvester Stallone was born with a Jupiter Chiron conjunction, Christopher Reeve had a sesquare. In Arnold Schwarzenegger's chart they are in the fifth house, exactly 15 degrees apart. I think all 15 degree contacts are valid, but of course the orbs vary greatly.

As you know I am a bit sceptical about the woundedness of the mythical Chiron playing out in astrology. Every planet has its own wounds.”

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Darren said...

Have you seen this essay Elwell wrote on the subject:

Also, have you read his book 'Cosmic Loom'? Its really good.

Incidentally, notice how around the time Chiron was discovered, the Superman films were released. I always saw Batman as more Pluto-themed. Power, transformation, the shaddows. Many people see the 1989 Tim Burton Batman film as the definitive one. It has a really dark gothic 1930s look to it. And was, of course, made and released when pluto was in Scorpio.

Darren said...

I do think Chiron has something to do with going beyond the limits of the possible. Also around the time of its discovery (1977) we not only had Superman, but the launch of the Supersonic jet concorde. It was also the era in which the self-improvement movement took off, with books like Super-learning, Super-memory etc. In other news in that year, Voyager, the first man-made object to leave our solar system, was launched (beyond previous limits). We also made the discovery that life was not limited to the sunlight-based ecosystem, but could survive totally independently around the hydrothermal vents in the pitch black depths of the oceans. A major discovery as it ultimately shows life could be way more abundent in the universe if its not limited to photosynthesis ecosystems.

Viviene said...

The fact that Chiron is half-centaur is key imo. Centaurs are mythical creatures and not subject to the same laws as mere mortals.

There is an inherent savagery to Chiron in my observation of those who have a strong Chironian element to their chart - even if this is not immediately apparent. I do see this as arising from the wounded and sometimes frightened animal which is part of the Chiron legacy.

I have seen this particularly in those with Chiron rising or conjunct Sun. There is wisdom, healing ability and charisma but also an underlying savage eroticism.

Certainly they are not bound by convention and often have very subversive and radical viewpoints. All imho of course.

Viviene said...

Thanks Darren – for the link to that interesting essay on Chiron. I am very much in accord with his view of Chiron as a ‘maverick’, an agent provocateur and a rebel. He is an outsider with a deeply cynical view of both the establishment AND the opposition. An ability to think laterally comes naturally when you are not bound by convention, and hence Chiron can be pretty left field.

In my experience Chiron’s healing ability also partakes of these qualities. It puts me in mind of Jack Nicholson’s role in One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest, where he brings in the girls and the booze and ultimately takes them out on that wild crazy boat ride which brings about his own downfall (or wounding).

In the process he goes a long way towards a genuine healing of some of the inmates, through his own unconventional and irreverent methods. Chiron is not a boring holier than thou New Age healer! He is wild, charismatic crazy and exciting. I have noticed strong Chiron links in synastry – which I think indicate a sexual attraction. Chiron is nothing if not sexual. Those centaurs liked to get on the p*ss and have a wild old time didn’t they? Wicked!

Pat Paquette said...

"Underlying savage eroticism?" I have a quite close Sun-Chiron conjunction (12/13 degrees Aquarius) but somehow missed out on that bit of fun. Then, Aquarius isn't one of the sexier signs...

Otherwise, I really appreciate Elwell's comments. I missed the flag on Top 10, so thanks for the follow-up, DR. Aquarius that I am, I always like to hear alternative views, especially when they're well-argued. I started reading Elwell just recently after discovering an online article in which he advocates ditching the old, stuffy rules of horary astrologer. I'm totally with him on that!

Pat Paquette said...

Oops, that should have been "horary astrology."


Thanks Darren, Viviene and Pat - really interesting bunch of comments. I've got Sun conjunct Chiron in Aquarius, so it's useful stuff for me personally.

Viviene said...

Yes, I find Chiron a very interesting influence indeed. My Sun in Gemini/4th house is basically unaspected - having only a septile to my Jupiter/Uranus conjunction and a tight trine to my Chiron in Aquarius/12th house.

So when there aren't many players on the team you do become acutely aware of those who are there. I can definitely feel that septile and the Chiron influence.

The Chiron aspect relates very much to my father who was murdered when I was 11. A lot of pain there obviously, and he was very much a Chironian figure. Good looking, charismatic, irreverant etc but also wounded. He was a psychologist in the Army for a while, and I suspect that after he left he continued to work as an undercover agent for ASIO. Before he went to London (where he met his fate) he told my mother he had been present the night of the notorious and still unsolved Bogle-Chandler murder - which was politically motivated.

I think he was murdered because of things he knew. I have researched the matter extensively but the truth will always be shrouded in mystery. My mother and he were estranged from when I was 4 years old and I hardly ever saw him. Mum hated him because of his womanising and drinking habits,quite understandably.

Viviene said...

Of course, I should have mentioned that in parallel to the strong sexuality I associate with Chiron, there are also difficulties in that area.

For instance one man I knew with Chiron rising exuded a powerful and magnetic sexuality had terrible problems with impotence. Another woman with a close Sun Chiron conjunct in Sagittarius was also extremely magnetic and wild with a regal, haughty presence. Yet she was a truly tormented soul and extremely ill at ease in her body and sexuality. The emmphasis was none the less there.

Another transexual friend has Chiron/Venus/Saturn/Moon/Mercury in Pisces in the 10th opposite Uranus/Pluto in the 4th (quite a doozy!!). It goes without saying she has extreme issues with her body and sexuality/has been a sex worker and sex is central to her life but is fraught with difficulty.

This is because the wound is in the centuar/beast aspect of the Chironian.

Out the Comet's Ass said...

Hello Astrotabletalk, I've got Chiron c. MC squaring Jupiter and opposing Mars. Neptune and Chiron are going to hit it soon. Guess that's when I get my Kryptonite.

I really enjoy reading your blog.

Lynn Hayes said...

I have to dispute the lumping of Chiron in with the rest of the Centaurs. The mythological Centaurs were descended from Ixion and shared Dionysian qualities of drunken and boorish behavior. Chiron was the son of a linking of Saturn and Philyra who turned herself into a mare in an attempt to escape the lustful Saturn which is why Chiron emerged as half horse. He is a Centaur only in form but not in geneaology.

I deal with Chiron a great deal in my practice and in my experience the wound of Chiron is most visible when it is involved in hard angle aspects. The softer aspects bring more of a quality of wisdom and I like this hero archetype.

The connection with Superman is particularly interesting in light of the woundedness of George Reeves who played him on television and had a square of Saturn in Gemini to Chiron in Pisces.

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But the wound if being separated from your biological parents is deep. Padmasambhava. Set off vulnerable. Maybe the wound can be bypassed by bodhicitta, for the benefit of all beings as you can't hang your ancestral hat on biological lineage.